The hurdles at home : Vaccine access and confidence in Canada

Season 3, episode 2

The hurdles at home : Vaccine access and confidence in Canada

The COVID-19 vaccine roll out has begun in Canada – and it is having to overcome some unique challenges. In this episode we hear two powerful women speak about the problems and possible solutions to vaccine access in the Canada's North, as well as efforts needed to build public confidence in COVID-19 vaccines.

Producers: Priyadarshini Mitra, Victoria Ptashnick

Sound Mix: Chandra Bulucon

Episode Transcript: 

[00:00:00.47] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:00:08.07] Honorable member for Nunavut.

[00:00:10.06] [APPLAUSE]

[00:00:15.41] [INAUDIBLE] Madame Speaker. First off, I'd like to start with-- it's an honor to be here to advocate for people in my territory.

[00:00:22.78] The voice you just heard is one of the country's youngest members of parliament and the only MP from Nunavut. It's been nearly four years since she gave a passionate speech in parliament on International Women's Day as part of the Daughters of the Vote program. And only two years after that, she was elected to represent Nunavut. It's been quite a journey for Mumilaaq Qaqqaq.

[00:00:46.63] And in this episode, we catch up with her and learn some of the unique challenges the north faces in dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. We'll also hear about the challenges and solutions related to vaccine access for refugee and Indigenous children from a doctor who specializes in just that.

[00:01:08.65] I'm UNICEF Canada president and CEO, David Morley, and this is the For Every Child podcast.

[00:01:17.09] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:01:33.85] On our For Every Child podcast today, we welcome Mumilaaq Qaqqaq, the only member of parliament from Nunavut and one of our country's youngest MPs. Thank you for joining us. You know, we've been following your journey from being an activist to becoming a member of parliament. It's only three, four years ago that you gave a passionate speech to parliament on International Women's Day as part of the Daughters of the Vote program. And two years later, you were elected to represent Nunavut. What's that journey been like for you?

[00:02:11.38] Incredible and crazy and interesting and very eye opening. That opportunity definitely opened a lot of doors. And I walked through a lot of them. I took a lot of opportunities since then, and that's kind of how being a member of parliament came along. It was late in the summer or early in the fall, whichever way you want to put it.

[00:02:37.42] It was shortly before the writ dropped when I was asked if I would be interested in taking something like that on, and I said OK, and I haven't really looked back. But that's kind of how I've always done things. So it's been a whirlwind for sure.

[00:02:53.62] I'm sure it has. I like the way you say that maybe there were some doors, and you walked through them. I guess there's nothing like seizing the moment, and you did it. You know, now we're at the beginning of a new year, hopefully, with new hope. And 2020 was challenging with everyone's life being upended by the pandemic. Can you take us through how it's been for you, for the people of Nunavut?

[00:03:26.95] I think that there are some clear differences in a sense with how COVID had hit certain parts of the country sooner than other parts, and Nunavut did an excellent job. And in that-- [INAUDIBLE] as Dr. Mike-- I call him Dr. Mike-- the chief health officer in the territory had said it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when we see COVID hit the territory. And sure enough, that's what happened unfortunately.

[00:04:02.55] I think that in terms of what a COVID reality looks like, it has been a little bit different because of those circumstances and just the differences in the reality is something what I perceive as the norms in the north and south. But in a lot of ways, it's also really halted a lot of people and across the country of course, but it's really halted people's opportunity for training for education.

[00:04:31.02] Oftentimes, they have to leave the territory for those kinds of things. Things like health care, basic health care, people have put basic appointments and things like that on hold. So it's definitely changed in some very big aspects like that. And some day-to-day norms, some things are still a little bit-- I don't know-- more normal is the right way to put it. But there are definitely some big differences I don't think a lot of people in the south would typically think about.

[00:05:01.36] What are those-- what would you say are the two or three biggest differences for most of your listeners here will be in the south? What do we have to learn about those differences in the norms?

[00:05:15.95] So some of the norms that I think about that are very normal to me is when I look outside, I don't see trees. I can see for kilometers and kilometers and to live around trees, people kind of laugh at me when I say I'm not a big fan. But that's just not my norm. With no trees being there that's because we have permafrost, and all of our communities are isolated fly in and fly out. So that's the only way that you can get in and out of them. And that's how we get most of our immediate resources.

[00:05:48.01] In terms of-- so that's one big difference, I think, that not a lot of people realize. And then, there are certain things like access to basic health care. Oftentimes, in most countries, women have to leave about a month early out of the territory to have their child just in case. It's a precaution just in case there's any complications during birth because the capacity at the health centers and communities is so low, and amount of equipment and resources is so low. Those kinds of things are just a norm for us and for me growing up.

[00:06:25.63] Whereas down south, you drive to the hospital and the neighborhood over maybe. Of course, it's not like that for everyone, but I don't think people think about those kinds of things at all. So those are two really big differences, I think.

[00:06:40.06] Yeah, those are really big differences here, and you're right. And I think you're right. We don't think about them a lot down here in the south. And now that the vaccination rollout is starting, what would you say are the biggest challenges for this program? And how could those challenges be better addressed for the north?

[00:07:07.41] Infrastructure is probably the biggest-- I don't like putting labels on stuff and trying to categorize and make checklists out of things. But the fact that not all Canadians have access to the different options of vaccines, I think, is very telling to the realities of Canada that for Nunavut, that was the only vaccine that can be accessed because of the lack of infrastructure in the north because the north does not have the capacity to transport and hold the other vaccine.

[00:07:47.85] To me, that's already a glaring issue and goes to show the lack of basics in health care-- in the infrastructure and health care. So that would be a huge one. Also with airlines, we don't see any kinds of subsidies or anything like that for major airlines in the north. And that's our-- it's our lifeline, it's our ambulance, it's our highway, it's our food. It brings, in and out, everything year round. So those two things will definitely be something that will be a challenge for the federal government.

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[00:08:27.79] To offer another perspective, we're joined by Dr. Anna Banerji, infectious disease specialist and faculty lead of Indigenous and Refugee Health at the University of Toronto's Faculty of Medicine. Thank you for joining us, Dr. Banerji.

[00:08:42.37] Good morning, David.

[00:08:43.52] I wonder if you could tell our listeners what sort of work you're doing now and how you've seen the pandemic impacting the communities that you provide care to?

[00:08:53.02] So I'm a pediatrician and infectious disease specialist. Since COVID began, I've been doing a fair bit of media education. So I'm also an educator. I work in multiple places, but most of my work is around Indigenous and refugee children. And I also run conferences to educate people on Indigenous and refugee health.

[00:09:12.82] So as far as the refugee population, I screen government-assisted refugee children coming into Toronto. And the way that COVID has impacted them is that a lot of the kids and families were not allowed into the country because of the travel restrictions. And now, we get a little-- you know, a few kids coming in, but it's really not what we usually expect. And so, families that have been approved to come to Canada as we settle refugees, they're not coming.

[00:09:43.39] The other population that I have worked with is Indigenous populations. And I've been doing some advocacy. We had a petition where we, myself with Indigenous leaders, had a petition for the government so that they could give more resources to Indigenous communities to fight COVID.

[00:10:04.09] We also had suggestions in our petition to say what kinds of things should occur like rapid testing, prioritization of vaccination, surge capacity. And actually, the government took a lot of what we suggested and put it into the strategic plan.

[00:10:23.38] I usually-- I also work in a tropical disease unit, and because of the travel restrictions, I haven't been seeing people who have been coming back from traveling. So what I've been doing with much of my time is I've been calling people with COVID since April. So I've talked to thousands of people that have COVID. I've heard their stories. I've learned a lot about COVID during this time, some of the barriers that people experience.

[00:10:47.47] Congratulations on that, getting the government to take into account some of the suggestions that you and other Indigenous leaders were making. It's really an important step, I know, and we were just now-- Mumilaaq, the member of parliament for Nunavut, she mentioned just now some of the crucial challenges that are faced in the north in vaccinating people against COVID-19.

[00:11:17.38] And I wonder what you see are some of the challenges that you've been coming across as we try to do vaccination with refugees and families and children? What are people encountering in the more urban centers-- settings in Canada?

[00:11:36.58] The big common denominator between Indigenous, refugee, and racialized populations is really a lack of trust. When you look at refugees, their populations that have fled their country because the government is unable to or unwilling to protect them, or in many circumstances, it's the government that's actually doing the persecution. So how do you build trust when the government has been the abuser in many circumstances?

[00:12:03.85] A lot of the refugees that I see though, have been under-vaccinated, and they've seen what happens when you don't have vaccines. For example, they've seen children die from measles, tetanus, whooping cough, those kinds of things. So usually to vaccinate that population is not as difficult because they understand the importance of vaccines, especially when they're under-vaccinated.

[00:12:28.37] Other racialized communities, for example, Black communities in Toronto, there's more of an issue, again, because of trust. We know, historically, Black people have been treated differently than other populations, and you have situations where they did experiments on Black people like the syphilis experiments where they, instead of treating syphilis, they allowed syphilis to occur at the natural progression to see what happens in men and pregnant women to see what the outcomes were.

[00:12:59.71] So there have been a lot of reasons in the past not to trust the government. As far as Indigenous communities, again, throughout the past several hundred years, there's lots of reason not to trust the government where policies in place really have not benefited Indigenous peoples. And in fact, promises have been broken.

[00:13:22.45] And if you look currently, with Indigenous communities, you have them living in situations where there's overcrowding, there's differential funding for education, for schools-- for health care, for housing, for water. You have so many communities without clean water. And so, how do you rebuild that trust?

[00:13:45.46] On the other hand, Indigenous communities have also seen that when infections have come, things like smallpox or measles have decimated Canadian Indigenous communities. And even recently, with H1N1, you had communities where H1N1 had a huge impact on the community.

[00:14:07.54] I think First Nations people were about 6.5 times more likely to end up on life support than the Canadian average. And so, while there's this mistrust, there's also the recognition that this is something that could be very serious and could have a huge impact on the communities.

[00:14:30.08] The other issue is that these vaccines have been developed very, very quickly. And that's why there is a lot of hesitancy saying, why are these vaccines developed so quickly? Are we being experimented on like in the past? And so, that is one of the other barriers in building confidence in COVID vaccination.

[00:14:53.22] There are people who don't have trust in governments and have this lack of confidence. What are some of the ways that we can try to overcome these, and have you seen any of these solutions-- these work as solutions in the past?

[00:15:07.95] So I think one thing is really important. If we're trying to get the vaccines into certain marginalized communities or communities that may be more hesitant to take the vaccine, I think you need community engagement at every step of the process. I think for a lot of Indigenous communities, they've had their own strategic plans. They've been in discussion, and they are saying nothing about us without us which is the way that we need to engage Indigenous and other racialized communities.

[00:15:39.74] The messaging must be clear and transparent. I think that a lot of people look to social media, and I think there's a lot of misinformation. So we need to counteract the misinformation but make sure it's based on facts and evidence. We need to use community leaders in and supporting the messaging.

[00:16:00.11] And if the community leaders are-- wants to get vaccinated first, community chiefs or Black community leaders or health care providers to say, you know, I believe in this vaccine. And they've been vaccinated, and people will talk about the actual studies, the data, make sure that questions are answered in a clear and transparent way. Then we're more likely to get trust.

[00:16:28.64] I think also we need communication in languages, in different languages, especially Indigenous languages that are often overlooked and making sure that the intimation is culturally appropriate for the different communities.

[00:16:47.58] It's interesting, you know, I see so many parallels between what you're saying we need to do here in Canada with what UNICEF has to do around the world. We invest so much in what we call communications for development, when we're doing polio vac-- for example, for polio campaigns. It's involving community leaders. It's working in the local language. Community leaders, all the time, are really important, and how we empower them. Because if we don't empower them, we're not going to be able to do much. Yeah?

[00:17:20.87] That's right. Yeah, absolutely. It's 100%, there's a lot of parallels between international work and work with certain groups, underserved groups in Canada.

[00:17:33.68] Well, thank you very much for taking the time from your busy schedule because I'm-- all that you're doing to help everyone stay healthy. We really appreciate. Thanks very much, Dr. Banerji.

[00:17:46.79] Great, thank you.

[00:17:48.89] It's obvious from speaking with Dr. Banerji and Mumilaaq that although vaccines are key to stopping the spread of COVID-19, accessing them and getting them into people's arms isn't always easy. The hard work Dr. Banerji is doing in promoting facts over fear is so important.

[00:18:07.29] And that will play an important part in getting communities vaccinated, lessening the impact of COVID-19 for children in Canada because ultimately, it is those young people who will inherit and lead this post-pandemic world. It is those young people who must step forward and play a part in building this world back better. But how can we make that happen? I put that question to someone who has some lived experience on that subject.

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[00:18:41.38] It's inspiring to see how you as a member of parliament connect and speak with young people. What do you think are some ways that we can better involve young people in our political systems and really listen and learn from their perspectives?

[00:18:59.45] I think we need to stop underestimating youth. I think that we need to give them more responsibility instead of just acknowledgment and trust. I think it's the third thing that's really important. We like to think we are inclusive and diverse. But does that actually reflect what's going on in the country and in the world? Not usually.

[00:19:32.40] Instead of doubting and thinking that youth aren't going to be able to grasp concepts or be able to create ideas and solutions, you just need to give them a chance and trust that they can make decisions, that they can create opportunities and create something that's bigger and better because that's what we're doing, isn't it?

[00:19:56.01] We're trying to create something that's bigger and better for our youth. So why wouldn't we let them do the same for themselves and for the people after them? I think that instead of a checkmark box approach, we need to look at it as an actual voice and an opinion that matters and take it into serious consideration. And I feel weird talking about youth because I am youth. So it happens, and it's happening. But it needs to happen more like this.

[00:20:24.50] As a young person yourself then, what's your advice to other young people who are thinking about whether they should try to do a career in public life?

[00:20:35.33] For any youth, it can be intimidating and daunting a little bit sometimes to enter these spaces that make you feel uncomfortable or like, maybe you're not supposed to be there. But guess what? Most of the adults don't know what they're doing either.

[00:20:55.38] And you have every opportunity and every right to learn the process and learn what's going on and figure out those solutions. But more often than not, you have more creative ones, and you have more open-minded ones. And realize that you belong in this space, and you have every right to be here. And really embrace that and hold that. That's the best thing that you can do.

[00:21:22.17] And sometimes, there's helpful days, but the best thing you can also do is just your self-care and tell yourself that you're awesome every day because it's lots of hard work. And I do it every day because I've got to practice it every day. And that's trying to remember who you are and why you're here, and you have every right to be here.

[00:21:42.83] And thank you very much for joining us.

[00:21:47.28] Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

[00:21:51.32] That inspiring message from Mumilaaq just fills me with confidence that the future is in good hands with our youth leading the way. I also take pride in the fact that UNICEF Canada works with passionate and smart young individuals and truly believes in the power of young people. Our domestic movement here in Canada, One Youth, is working hard every day to make Canada the best place in the world for children to grow up in by 2030.

[00:22:22.08] That brings us to the end of our episode for February. If you liked what you heard and want to learn more about what UNICEF Canada is doing for children in Canada, please visit OneYouth.unicef.ca. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next month with another episode.

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